This post has actually come about as a response to a comment by the lovely Mr Hoverfrog on a post from earlier in the week where I mentioned that one of my colleagues had learnt her sister had been killed and lamented that I hoped there is an afterlife. Mr Frog said:
“There is no evidence for any kind of life after death. Instead of worrying about that there are practical things that can be done for those directly affected. Focus on how you can provide human-oriented comfort and support. No feelings are “bad” or “good,” they are just there. That included the desire to have someone around when that is no longer possible.
Personally I view belief in an afterlife as a sticking point in the process of coming to terms with a loss. These are well known as denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. Afterlife is a denial of actual death or a way of bargaining with some kind of anthropomorphic death figure. It may provide comfort in the short term but it prevents you from reaching acceptance of death.”
Then I said the following, but I feel that it warrants a new post. Quite a heavy subject for me really.
I’m not a particularly religious person and I only think of a handful of times where I have ever discussed the topic on here (in fact, the one that springs to mind was about the LHC experiment which was a bit flippant).
I have my ideas about the world and the way it works, what we are here for and what happens when we die, but I don’t tend to talk about any of it because it’s something that, as a rule, I like to keep to myself.
I quite disagree on one thing though: I don’t think believing in the afterlife is a “sticking point in the process of coming to terms with a loss” at all. Regardless of whether or not one believes that death is not the end, a loss is felt. Believing in the afterlife similarly does not mean that a person doesn’t come to the fifth stage of acceptance in the grieving process. Just because you believe that people must also believe that there is nothing after the body shuts down, doesn’t mean that they have to as well. I don’t care what other people want to believe because that is their choice. I am not a preacher and I don’t stand around outside tube stations ranting on to the masses about sin and God but I have my private beliefs. I don’t think anyone should necessarily think the same as me on this.
At the end of the day, I don’t think that belief in an afterlife actually causes anybody any harm so live and let live on the matter. While there is no proof that there is an afterlife, there is also nothing to say that there isn’t something more beyond the physical life. The universe is a vast and complex place and humans are learning more and more all the time. There will be things that we may never uncover but it doesn’t mean that they are not there.
The fact remains that we exist and nobody has been able to explain that. Sure, The Big Bang, but where did that come from? There have been theories about this of course too, but at the end of the day, you can always take it one step back and say “but where did that come from and how did it come about?” By way of comparison, it’s like “think of the biggest number in the world!!” Whatever you come up with (x), you can always make it one bigger (x+1). Always.
Bringing it back to life, death and faith, that is the sticking point for me. If it weren’t for this inability to determine where *life* came from (even in its most rudimentary form), perhaps I would be dismissive of any notion of faith (be it organised religion or my own sense of spirit), but that remains the big unanswered question for me and no amount of being told that I shouldn’t believe in some form of higher being or spiritualism will change my mind until that question can be answered.
You don’t have to agree with me on this. I don’t care either way 
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I do hope there is a Heaven and I get to go there. Otherwise, why all the preamble? I mean, how can this be all there is? Many people would be really ripped off! People like Mother Theresa… why would she bother? She could’ve written books, been an artist, a wife and mother. She instead dedicated her life to the poorest of the poor. She’d better get to go to Heaven!
I suppose I’m done. I believe in God and Heaven and also, quite unfortunately, Satan and Hell.
So there!
To S. Le: why bother? Because it helps other people! Both in her lifetime, and in the generations of the future.
I don’t think Einstein or Planck or any other heavily-influential scientist discovered things and furthered the cause of humanity just to get into Heaven. They did it to understand.
That’s the inherent problem with religion (or at least, religion to such a devout level that it excludes other possibilities). Everything is based around the Faith, and the belief, and the preconception that everything we do is based around getting into Heaven, or falling into Hell.
I’m not suggesting that it’s not a noble purpose, but it is more noble to simply do something — discover something, explore somewhere — with the hope of furthering society and helping to improve the condition of other people’s lives.
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Re: death and the afterlife, you know my feelings on the matter. People are free to believe what they want. They should also appreciate that there are other equally valid (or invalid, as the case may be) opinions on the subject.
My only concern is that people go through life on a huge body of expectations that might turn out to be false. I think it’s better to just… get on with things. And hope for the best.
Two young dragonflies are sitting talking on the bottom of the pond. Is there life after death, says the first one ? Can’t see it says the other.
And just above the surface their parents fly happily about…………….
Mr Seb – Interesting comment, particularly: “My only concern is that people go through life on a huge body of expectations that might turn out to be false. ”
Does it matter?
These expectations? If they turn out to be false and there is no afterlife, well, you just don’t know do you? If death is really ‘it’ and there is no more, there is no way of reflecting (after death) that you got it wrong and you carried around these ideas for them to be dashed. If there is nothing after death, there is no possibility of feeling pain or disappointment.
You can expect away, but the worst that can happen is that you never experience the discomfort of not making it to the afterlife and as you’d never know anyway, it just doesn’t matter.
If anything, there being an afterlife might be the cause for fear of false expectations! You might get there and think “hang on a minute, this isn’t what I had in mind.” Perhaps that is what we should be worrying about?
No, my concern is more that people live life ‘as an X’ (insert religion) and… it’s all for nothing.
Sure, most religions also provide a moral compass, and that’s great. But you can be a nice person without spending thousands of hours trying to reach God/Nirvana/whatever.
The prayer and repentance and everything that goes along with it has to be _worth it_ on more than just a personal level. It’s awfully selfish just to worry about whether you are getting into Heaven when there are still billions of people without fresh water.
I just think the world would be better if we sort out the whole range of real-time real-world problems first. And then do the whole personal salvation thing a bit later.
What a sad commentary, that some people don’t believe in an afterlife!
The prospect is so depressing they probably are half dead already!
Meanwhile there IS abundant evidence of an afterlife.
My favorite story is of a man who died, came back to communicate to his wife where his money was hidden in a wall. Without that “after death communication” she would never have found the money. Tell THAT to your “lovely Mr. Hoverfrong.” Ha, ha!
CL
http://neardeathnews.wordpress.com/
I think everyone is entitled to their opinion on this and there is a large proportion of the population that doesn’t believe in the afterlife. This is as valid as opinion as the belief that life after death does exist.
We need to respect that there is divided opinion on this and not seek to try and change anyone’s mind.
is there any moral or legal law that says we are never to try and change someone’s mind/opinion?
There is divided opinion on the issue of smoking – should we not do all we can to ensure as many as possible are aware (contrary to the maunfacturer’s aims) of the effects of smoking on our and our society’s health? (which we ALL ‘pay’ for through shortened lives and greater medical expenses)
If you have seen your father who smoked up to forty ciggies a day from the time he was 12 die from terminal lung and brain cancer would you not perhaps feel somewhat compelled to ‘change people’s minds’ about paying a fortune to do the same to themselves??
Is there a moral and self-serving, as well as ensuring a better life for all humanity, reason in wanting to change a smoker’s mind on the issue – particularly if they have a large family who depends upon them for support and love?
or is it quite ‘ok’ to just let them kill themselves because it supposedly ‘makes them feel good to smoke’?
as for belief in the afterlife…
IF, by believing in an all-powerful God of the Universe who is responsible for the evolution of all life in accordance with a ‘divine plan’ so that it comes to fully understand it’s own spiritual nature and either ‘joins in’ to ’side with’ or ‘fall away’ and ’separate from’ God and Sebastian is right and i am wrong, then, at worst, i have tried to live a good and spiritually pure life helping my fellow man in the best way i know how and that is the end of ‘my’ matter (until its atoms reform into some other aspect of a living or non-living thing)
However if Sebastian and those who think like him are wrong and what i believe God is saying is right then their choice to not believe in God ensures their spirit has decided to separate from God and will not find an eternal life after this one.
Being a loving being who seeks for the best for all mankind both here and in the hereafter how am i then to behave?
Do i leave those who choose to hold an opinion contrary to mine to continue to hold it through ignorance? or do i share what i believe i ‘know’ that their spirit might have some chance to live eternally upon their death to this life?
In terms of the respect for other’s opinions: Do i have the greater respect for a human choice of opinion based upon ‘false’ belief (in science) or do i have the greater respect for God’s will? (as much as i might be able to follow it)?
What is my greater ’sin’? to not declare the ‘gospel’ of Christ to all i meet with the hope that more may believe in Him, or to not respect a human being who thinks my God is a load of superstitious, unproven bunkum and let them die an eternal death as a result?
There is respecting of (individual) human thought and then there is a far greater RESPECT.
Those who choose not to believe may only see the former.
one thing i do believe – you can’t FORCE a person to change their mind.. what you CAN do is show them there is a better ‘way’ out of their human ‘condition’.
<B
Be that as it may, the point I will stress yet again is that it is up to the individual. I think it is actually quite arrogant to take the position that you should try and educate people who don’t believe the same as you because you feel your position is right and theirs is wrong or inferior.
I had no intention of responding to this post when Blue Soup put it up. I misinterpreted her original post and was trying to offer something supportive. I particularly don’t want to tread on anyone’s beliefs when they haven’t invited me to do so. Moreover she is quite correct to point out that people are entitled to hold onto whatever beliefs give them comfort. That may be the idea of rebirth enjoyed by Hindus, reincarnation enjoyed by many Buddhists, an afterlife of battle enjoyed by those who follow the Norse gods, or heaven and hell in Christian common mythology.
The facts as we know them are that our physical life ends in death and no evidence exists for anything spiritual. That does not rule it out but it does beg the question as to where the idea came from. I mean, people don’t come back from the dead to tell us despite what christianliberal may think. That still leaves room for the possibility of some kind of afterlife. I’m just not inclined to spend a lot of time pondering a question with no obtainable solution.
In that regard I have to agree with you Soupy.
Specifically in answer to christianliberal’s comment “What a sad commentary, that some people don’t believe in an afterlife! The prospect is so depressing they probably are half dead already!” I do find this a sad indictment on the harm that religious indoctrination does. Here is someone who places so much faith in an afterlife that they literally see this life, the only life we have evidence for, as something without value. This life, if it is indeed the only life we have, is hardly cause for suicidal depression, quite the opposite. If this is our only chance at existence, as I believe, then we should not waste it in seeking to please a god who can assure our place in eternal existence. That surely devalues life and everything that we do in living.
Love in his response poses a variation on Pascal’s Wager. In reduced form it states: “If you believe, and God exists, you gain everything. If you disbelieve, and God exists, you lose everything.” This argument has been widely refuted by better men than me for three and a half centuries.
The most obvious is which god do you believe in? Most religions give the greatest offence as believing in a different god. With literally tens of thousands of living religions in the world you are almost assured of making the wrong choice. Another obvious point is that religious belief really isn’t a function of the conscious mind. I cannot choose to believe in the majesty of Allah or the glory of Ganesha. I could pretend to believe but are we to assume that the god in charge of the afterlife will be so easily fooled?
Then there is Christianity’s ugly adoption of the doctrine of Hell. If you believe that you float off to paradise to be reunited with loved ones upon your death then so what? It’s a comforting idea that takes some of the natural fear of the unknown that we feel when confronted with death. There’s not a lot of harm in it is there? Sadly this paradise is reserved only for the obedient petitioners of God’s mercy. Some Christians hold the view that we are all stained with sin and are destined for eternal torment forever unless we become good Christians. What is meant by “good Christian” depends on the particular denomination of course. If heaven is used as a carrot for promoting good behaviour in the faith then hell is a stick to beat them with. It is a tool of fear and control that is both revolting in conception and disgusting in implementation. Many people are genuinely scarred by the belief in a literal hell.
It isn’t even well supported in Christian scripture. Most Christians get their idea of hell from popular interpretations of Dante Alighieri’s Inferno and not from the Gehenna of Jewish lore. There’s also a fair amount of Greek Hades thrown in for good measure. This is what you’d expect from a faith that was carried and adopted by the Greeks and Romans early in its formation.
OK, rant over. I hope I’ll be forgiven for it but hell is a particular bugbear of mine.
Anyway, that is how I see it. Agree or disagree, it’s up to you. Sorry if I’ve overstepped the mark on your blog Soupy. I was trying to avoid it.